July 11th 2019

Ultimate Sales Pro. What the best salespeople do differently. Paul Cherry

Ultimate Sales Pro. What the best salespeople do differently. Paul Cherry. 2018. ISBN 978081443896.  The author is a successful salesperson and sales trainer who has detailed the paths to success in sales.  His focus is on efficiency and why you do things this way. He makes a good argument that salespeople need a coach through their career, someone whom your company is unlikely to provide.  He also does a reasonable job wrto to laying out how your career is likely to progress.  I took many notes as his material rings very true. Pretty decent book and takes up about a 3 hour plane ride.

June 30th 2019

Dark Horse. Achieving success through the pursuit of fulfillment. Todd Rose & Ogi Ogas

Dark Horse. Achieving success through the pursuit of fulfillment. Todd Rose & Ogi Ogas. 2018. ISBN 9780062683649.  These are stories of dark horses, people who found their happiness and calling through often convoluted and  non standard paths. As well it is an analysis of the failings of our society to accommodate/ give people real choices and paths to fulfillment vs having standardized one size fits all programming for success.  This is a very important book that will cause you to rethink much that you have accepted about pathways to success/fulfillment.  It also reflects the growing drive for self actualization among today’s young people.

June 24th 2019

The Plant-Based Runner. Jonathan Cairns.

The Plant-Based Runner. Jonathan Cairns. 2019.   A short diary of one man’s growth in ability to run marathons and ultra marathons.  It is quite inspirational and follows his path. The plant based aspect is important to the author and you may find it. If you have any desire to be healthier and run more, than this book may get you off the couch.  The suggestions for food etc all seem to align with other plant based guides.

June 17th 2019

Crossing the Chasm. 3rd edition. Geoffrey Moore.

Crossing the Chasm. 3rd edition. Geoffrey Moore.   2014. ISBN 9780062292988.  We read the first edition (1991) when it came out and found it bang on and helpful.  It was time to reread it and the 3rd Edition reflects the work  Moore has done  ( and written about) with high tech companies in the last 25 years.  I was particularly interested in the subtle insights he gives wrto sales and marketing  jobs and personnel while moving along his time line. This reflects what we have learned about the types of people you need during the transition from Innovators/Visionaries ( Chasm)  through to mid majority ( The Tornado).  It is very useful for HR as well.  If you have not read it – and are in any way in a high tech company – do so immediately. If its been awhile since you read it – its well worth the reread. It remains a concise book to company success and although an easy read , it is full of deep insights.



May 6th 2019

Traversing the Traction Gap. Bruce Cleveland.

Traversing the Traction Gap. Bruce Cleveland. 2019. ISBN 9781635765748.  With a forward and collaboration with Geoffrey Moore this promises to be a very important book in the tech sector. The author and his group Wildcat Ventures has analyzed the getting to and through the Chasm in more detail  than ever before.  In our gotomarket practice we have seen the truths that Cleveland puts forward in many iterations in too many companies. A startup and young company should have this book handy through the several years and rough times that they need to weather.  Much of the necessary hard stuff can be planned for and mitigated if you follow what this book has to say.  It goes beyond MVCategory, through MVProduct to MVrevenue, to category lead then traction and scaling. The insights on the right team at all stages  is worth the price of the book.  This may become the tech book of the year.

May 1st 2019

Jonas Jonasson. The Hundred Year old man (2) and the girl who saved the kind g of Sweden

The 100 year old man and further adventure s of the 100 year man. Two hilarious satirical books covering WW1 through to present day from the viewpoint of an adventuring Swede. The hero, Adam Ericcson, meets many notable, famous people during his life and even after he turns 100. It’s pure Swedish humour as well that pokes most puffed up people in the eye.
The girl who saved the king of Sweden.  Continued satire starting in South Africa during apartheid. The heroine is a smart, uneducated black girl who surmounts numerous odds and ends up with a crazy group in Sweden. All bets are off!

April 30th 2019

Tony Hillerman, Joe Leaphorn and Jim Chee series

One of the original cowboy mystery writers of the 59s. Hillerman wrote about Navajo policemen,Joe Leaphorn and Jim Chee . They go through many scenarios in the Navajo country, before ultimately solving the crime. Along the way they deal with arrogant inept FBI folks and other place forces. You will learn much about Navajo and Pueblo ways. And perhaps a heightened respect for this culture and the people who live in this hard so I beautiful country.  Series list below

The Blessing Way (1970)
Dance Hall of the Dead (1973)
Listening Woman (1978)
People of Darkness (1980)
The Dark Wind (1982)
The Ghostway (1984)
Skinwalkers (1986)
A Thief of Time (1988)
Talking God (1989)
Coyote Waits (1990)
Sacred Clowns (1993)
The Fallen Man (1996)
The First Eagle (1998)
Hunting Badger (1999)
The Wailing Wind (2002)
The Sinister Pig (2003)
Skeleton Man (2004)

April 30th 2019

Panama. The Country Beyond the Canal by Amanda Nordman

Beyond the Canal

by Amanda Nordman


Due to the political situation in Panama in 2005, we were discouraged from visiting Panama City during our Panama cruise. It has taken us 14 years and many discussions with various friends to finally make this trek.  The cruise lines are still telling passengers to skip Panama. How wrong they are! 


We spent the first four days upon our arrival exploring the highlights of Panama City. Our hotel, the Tryp Wyndham is situated in the El Cangrejo district central to the metro (subway), therefore nothing ventured, nothing gained, we headed down to the subway station and figured out the system. With two  ($2()etro cards in hand and a cost of 35 cents to travel to any corner of the city, we set of to explore this bustling city. It was hot, humid, with very little shady areas and no respite from the heat. We were sweating buckets but noticed that the Panamanians looked as cool as cucumbers! The locals were dressed in long pants, jeans, long sleeves, some with hoodies while the gringos wore shorts and T’s – something wrong this picture!


 El Cangrejo

The first day was spent getting our bearings and exploring the area. El Cangrejo or ‘The Crab’ founded in the 1950s, was the first Jewish quarter and was once exclusive. Now it’s known for its vibrant nightlife, with hip bars, laid-back brewpubs, casinos and mercados, many clustered around Via Argentina. We took a walk along Via Argentina which was getting a facelift at this time – widening sidewalks, underground cables, etc. It should look great when finished. Via Argentina is Panama City’s restaurant row with dining spots serving Cuban, Chinese, Indian, Lebanese, Mexican, Peruvian, Spanish, and Venezuelan cuisines.  Sampled some great churros at a cafe along this street. 

Mercado de Mariscos 

Three subway stops to Cinco de Mayo and a short walk, dodging crazy traffic took us to the city fish market. There are two parts to this market. The market proper, where you can buy freshly caught seafood fresh off the fishing boats you see in the bay. The other part of the market is where the restaurants are, where the freshly caught seafood is served up for your dining pleasure. They are not fancy joints, just sectioned off counters with tables and plastic outdoor seating under a canopy, more like Istanbul’s Karakoy Waterfront and San Francisco’s Fisherman’s Wharf. The local specialty is ceviche, served in cups, where the raw fish is “cooked” in citrus juices. Not impressed with the ceviche at all, it was tough and too citrusy, Costa Rica and Mexico has far better ceviche. The seafood was certainly fresh but unfortunately they tend to deep fry the fish, plantains and everything else. On Wednesdays they have an open air farm market with tons of fruit and vegetables for next to nothing. 

From here it is an easy walk to Casco Veijo, the Old Quarter. 

Casco Veijo 

Also known as Casco Antiguo or San Felipe, is the historic district of Panama City, established around 1673 by Spanish colonists, the Catholic Church and other settlers. It was declared a World Heritage Site by UNESCO in 1997. The narrow cobblestoned streets are filled with 16th & 17th century Spanish Colonial buildings that served as homes, cathedrals, churches and government buildings. There is the Presidential Palace, the plazas of Casco ViejoPlaza de Catedral, Plaza Bolivar, Plaza de Francis, Plaza Herrera . Some of the buildings have been painstakingly restored and now house museums, gourmet restaurants, quaint shops and upscale residences. There is a sharp contrast between old and new. Some buildings stand in disrepair or complete ruin and the homes of poor families juxtaposed next door with a remodeled, exclusive property.  At the Plaza de Francia is the Las Bovedas Monument which are vaults or dungeons that originally formed part of the fortification wall around the Old City. Above the monument is a promenade that runs along the top of the sea wall with great views of the bay and Panama City`s skyline. You then come to a vine and bougainvillea covered esplanade known as Paseo de Las Bovedas where the indigenous Kuna Yala women set up stalls here to sell their unique handicrafts called Molas. This hand made, colourful textile forms part of the traditional women’s clothing. They also adorn they arms and legs with beads. When you walk a bit further down the walkway you get a view of the Bridge of the Americas and the ships waiting to pass beneath it to enter the Panama Canal. Casco Veijo is of course the city’s hottest district where the “hip and trendy” gather after dark in jazz clubs, rooftop bars, etc. and where everything is twice the price. 


We just had to visit the Miraflores locks which brought back memories of our canal cruise in 2005. Five subway stops took us to Albrook Mall, not a particularly attractive mall but it’s the largest shopping mall in Latin America, with a massive bus terminal. Every city in the interior of the country and within the City of Panama is connected by a network of bus stations, the prices range from 25¢ to $18.25. After much hand pointing and with our limited Spanish we finally managed to get on the right bus for a 20 minute, 25¢ bus ride from there to the Visitor Centre. This Center is made up of four exhibition halls; it covers the history, function, international importance, and the biodiversity of a man-made waterway, namely the Panama Canal, linking the Caribbean to the Pacific. It also showed the building of the third canal. The building has three levels for observing the Canal’s operation, the passage of ships through the locks and how they move. Unfortunately we were a little late getting there and just missed the 10:00 am ship transiting the canal. The next ship was scheduled for 2:00 pm, we debated but decided there were too many other areas to cover. 

Ancon Hill 

At the foot of Ancon Hill is Mi Pueblito, a mock village depicting three Panamanian cultures: Afro-Caribbean, the interior region, and indigenous groups. At the main entrance is a colonial Spanish hacienda-style building. The climb up Ancon Hill up takes about 30 minutes. The incline is quite steep but it is gradual and on a paved road. Through the thick jungle, you will see glimpses of the city along the way up. At the top there are two viewing platforms with great views back across the city center and the ocean. Another viewpoint gives you views of the new Panama Canal. 

Amador Causeway 

The Amador Causeway was once just a strip of tarmac used to link the capital to the small islands of Naos, Perico and Flamenco, now it’s a 6km-long stretch of road which extends into the Pacific Ocean at the point where the Panama Canal meets the sea. This beautiful new causeway was built using soil excavated during the canal’s construction. Today it is popular with walkers and cyclists. It also boasts beautiful views of the city and is the best vantage point for watching the large container ships enter and exit the canal. 


The Causeway also leads to the Biomuseo. This brightly coloured, world class museum designed by Frank Gehry (he also designed the Gugenheim Museum in Spain) is an introduction to Panama’s genetic, ecological and biological bounty. It tells the story of the natural history of Panama, of how the isthmus of Panama rose from the sea uniting two continents, separating a vast ocean in two and changing the planet’s biodiversity. The story of humans in the isthmus since their first arrival up until the present. Also in one corner, 97 animals are suspended representing the cross-migration that took place once the isthmus of Panama rose from the deep to create a land bridge between North and South America some 3 million years ago. The Biodiversity Park beside the museum is a living extension of the museum’s architecture and exhibits, it features endemic and native plants. 

From the Museum we decided to rent this silly canopied pedal cart for two to complete our exploration of the causeway – walking was definitely out of the questions, we wouldn’t have survived the blazing sun. We made the 5 km to Isla Perico for lunch. From here you face the canal’s Pacific entrance and you can watch the ships passing. 

We had an early morning start on day 5 for the next part of our journey. It was back to the Albrook Mall for 2 bus tickets to David. The kindly ticket lady gave us the best seat on the bus, a double-decker and right up front with full view of the road ahead. The buses are comfortable with reclining seats and movies, of course they only played all the Marvel action-packed movies! It was a 7 hour journey – the only drawback, but the price was right at $18.20 per person versus airfares costing $500 for 2. The little discomfort was worth it! A 1 hour stop in Santiago gave us some respite for a bathroom break and a meal. The choices for meals were well overcooked fried chicken (definitely not KFC style), a couple of varieties of stewed meats, rice and a limited choice of salads. Oh, to be in Turkey again where they served great truck-stop meals. 


We arrive David, the capital of Chiriqui at around 2:00 pm. The second largest city in Panama, with a population of over 145,000, it feels like an overgrown country town – not pretty at all. We pick up our rental car and head for Cerro Punta which is about 71 km (a little over an hour’s drive). We weave our way through nightmarish traffic with our GPS set for the Pan America Highway to Cerro Punta. One thing we did not know about driving around the country side is the number of police checkpoints, sometimes they will smile and signal you to proceed, other times they will check your ID. So we merrily watch the arrow on our GPS as we take in the country side, until we come to a check-stop. The officer looks at our passport, then asks if we enjoyed Panama. With a puzzled look on our faces we say, “Yes, we’re from Vancouver, Canada and am enjoying the warmth!”. We must look like respectable tourists so they wave us through. As we drive along, something just doesn’t look right, there seems to be chaos everywhere. There are tractor-trailer trucks lined up and lots of vehicles parked haphazardly everywhere. The area is extremely busy, with lots of shops, people waiting around and others trying to sell things. We check the GPS again and it dawns on us that the device has led us astray, the road seems to have veered off into an unknown direction. We realize we just crossed the border into Costa Rica, a half hour from the turn off for La Concepción!  Sign, what sign – signs are not prolific in the whole of Panama! Back we go and finally locate the correct turn off. 


We reach Volcán around 5:00 pm and get our first glimpse of the beautiful Volcán Baru, an active volcano and the tallest mountain in Panama at 3,475m. The town of Volcán sits on an old lava flow from Volcán Baru. With a population of just over 12,000, this is a quiet, sleepy little place, the town’s commercial district is about 10 blocks longDue to its rich volcanic soil Volcán is deemed the “breadbasket of Panama” producing most of the countries vegetables such as onions, potatoes, carrots, and more. In addition, most of the flowers and bouquets enjoyed by Panamanians all over the country, some are shipped overseas are grown in Volcán. It’s cool year-round climate and altitude allows many species of plants, trees and flowers to flourish here that you won’t find in other parts of Panama. 

After a quick consult on Mr. Google we chose La Carbonera for a quick meal. This restaurant came with excellent reviews and lived up to its name. After having mediocre to bad food in Panama City this was a real treat. Their 18” calzone was amazing and the fillet of pork, perfectly done. The whole meal with beer cost us a mere $24.00. With happy tummies we head off to Cerro Punta for our 3 day stay at Orilla del Rio.

Cerro Punta 

We found Orilla del Rio through Airbnb, an excellent find. Our host Gudrun (Canadian expat) was patiently awaiting our arrival. Located in the middle of an agricultural valley, it was a quiet retreat with great views of the surrounding mountains, a bubbling brook at the rear of the property and a beautiful garden buzzing with different varieties of birds and humming birds. Gudrun was a wonderful host providing us with more information about life in Panama than we could take in. She is also a yoga instructor and does shiatsu, qigong and other healing therapies. Her breakfasts were scrumptious, healthy, consisting of fresh fruit smoothies, fresh fruit, tasty omelettes with her homemade yoghurt, jams, bread and 2 coconut cookies to take with us on our hikes. Breakfast was served on the patio while basking in the early morning sun with views of the mountains – what else could one ask for! In the evening we would light up the outdoor stone fireplace and enjoy our dinner in front of it. We spent one evening with Marta & Antonio from Spain, cuddling up to the fire and enjoying an interesting conversation about their backpack travel through Costa Rica & Panama. 

Cerro Punta is the highest inhabited area of Panama, located on the west side of Volcán Baru at an altitude of 2,000 m above sea level. It is a picturesque town with sprawling fields and horse ranches and a nature lover’s paradise. This bowl shaped highland valley is also known as the green basket or food basket of Panama because every available meter of land on the steep slopes is dedicated to growing fruits and vegetables, supplying between 80% to 90% of all the country’s garden produce. A mist, which locals call bajareque, often engulfs the valley, then retreats back to the mountaintops. This leads to frequent, fleeting rain showers that keeps the valley green year-round. 

About a five minute walk up the road sits the little village of Guadalupe at an elevation of 2300 m above sea level. Guadalupe is at the end of the road where friendly Guaymi Indians reside. The downtown is only one block full of plant shops, produce shops, handicraft shops and little restaurants. The weekend market is buzzing with people, locals and tourists checking out the souvenir stands, vegetable and fruit stands, standing in line to sample chorizos on sticks, brochettes, etc.


While in Cerro Punta, Gudrun suggested we visit the following places: 

La Amistad 

Parque Internacional La Amistad lies about 5 km away. This international park, about half of which spills into Costa Rica is spread along the Talamancan mountain range.  The cool, humid cloud forests of this region offers access to some of the most diverse plant and animal life in Panama. Nearly 600 species of birds live within the park, as well as animals such as ocelots, jaguars, and pumas. There are trails leading through the forest that gives way to vast vistas, bamboo tunnels, and a cascading waterfall. 

Finca Dracula 

Located in the little village of Guadalupe, this orchid farm contains about 2,500 species of orchids. We took a guided walk through the nursery with a very knowledgeable guide who led us through the different species of orchids and their many different scents and shapes they have evolved in order to attract different pollinators. The site’s altitude places it in a unique position in a cloud forest that can host several species of orchids found nowhere else in the world. Their famous orchid is the Dracula and like its famous counterpart, sleeps during the day and opens up after dark. In addition to the orchid greenhouse, the 22 acres hosts beautiful gardens, a lake framed by tall palm trees and broad-leaved water plants, a waterfall, and many beautiful local species of plants and trees. 

Sitio Barriles

This is a very interesting archaeological site located near the town of Volcán. It has artifacts from 300-900 AD and is named for the barrel shaped object which was the first artifact found here. The site is on a private farm, the owners being custodians of the site. I swear the owners had about 101 Dalmatians. Unfortunately, after having to wait for well over an hour for lunch at the Black Mountain Cafe and finally walking out in disgust, we headed back to the Volcán Cafe (which we should have done in the first place), where they serve a delicious Caprese Salad. By the time we got to Sitio Barriles the heavy rains were starting thus making it impossible to view the complete site but managed to see some of the artifacts. The house and grounds are surrounded by beautiful trees, flowers and many birds.

Janson Coffee Farm

Gudrun managed to get us a private tour of Janson Coffee Farm located near the town of Volcán. The owner, Lief Janson met us and took us through the growing process. The farm is located at an altitude of 1300 to 1700 m, it is a family owned and operated farm producing award winning coffee. The Jansons focus on specialty grade Arabica beans and also produce the famous Geisha coffee which sells for $50-$500 per lb. In 2013 Janson Geisha coffee won second prize in the annual Best of Panama Coffee Competition. Janson Coffee Farm’s micro climate provides the perfect conditions for growing this high quality coffee. He then took us through a tasting of the Janson Family Coffee, Red & Green brand, the Geisha Brand and Tea made from coffee husks, on the veranda of their coffee shop with a stunning view of the estate and mountains. No doubt we brought some samples home. 

We say goodbye to Gudrun and head off the Boquete. 


The small town of Boquete, lies in a lush valley and surrounded by mountains. It is almost 2000 m above sea level and has a cool climate. It has become one of the top spots for expats to retire in and a destination for nature and outdoor lovers with umpteen hiking trails, waterfalls, hot springs, flora, fauna and exotic birds, white-water rafting, zip-lining, etc. If one is lucky enough, a hike up Volcán Baru (the highest point in Panama at 3,475 m), is rewarded with stunning views that stretch to both the Pacific and Caribbean Coasts. But, Volcán Baru is shrouded in cloud most of the time. The downtown is composed of an assortment of shops, eateries, cafés, and parks. The surrounding countryside hosts an assortment of coffee farms, parks, wildlife sanctuaries. Boquete didn’t inspire us in any way, we found the town somewhat messy, disorganized with far too many expats buzzing around, prices rather steep, plus it rained heavily in the afternoons making the place rather damp and drear. 

Reg took one hiking tour called the Hanging Bridges Tour where you cross 6 suspension bridges ranging from 70 – 135 m long and reach heights from 10-75 m. He did not see any exotic birds only a few native flowers, a waterfall and a few rivers. On the whole, rather disappointing. A day and a half stay in Boquete was more than sufficient. On Gudrun`s recommendation, she was correct when she said that we would not like Boquete, we then headed off to Las Lajas for some much needed warmth

We hit a heavy rain storm on our way out of Boquete, eased off when we hit David and picked up again as we neared Playa Las Lajas and the resort, after that it was sun, sun, sun. Playa Las Lajas is set along Panama`s Pacific coast and one of the most popular beaches in the area. The beach sand is gray, vehicles are allowed along this 12 km long beach (one of the longest beaches in Panama), the water about 27C with surf ideal for body boarding and fishing. When the tide is out, there is about a hundred yards of sand, when it’s in, the water is about waste deep for a hundred yards. Our destination is the Show Pony Resort. On the way to this resort we pass the small quaint village of Las Lajas with its small subdivision of houses, schools, cattle ranches; a number of small restaurants, grocery stores, where you can stock up on food and beer. The road to the resort is very rough, a 4-wheel drive would be advisable but the reward at the end was worth the trip. The small resort is owned by Canadians and situated in a very peaceful location. We had a beautiful, large one-bedroom apartment, complete kitchen, full bathroom and an outdoor honeymoon shower, for US$80 per night, breakfast included. Both the bar and pool were about 10 steps from each apartment doorway There are only 8 of these apartments plus one 4-bedroom suite. At the back of the resort is an eco area and mangrove estuary. The ocean enters through the mangroves inside the coast for more than 10 km, making a peaceful place to relax and watch the wildlife. We had the beach all to ourselves and especially the lagoon where the surf was really gentle. Also did some kayaking and a hike to see Mesoamerican petroglyphsThe owners have a rescue center for birds, and care for them until they are ready to be released into the wild. We enjoyed playing with 2 rescued toucans, such beautiful, colourful, gentle birds. We parked ourselves there for 6 days and enjoyed the tranquility of our surroundings. Got to know a very nice lad from France who was traveling through Costa Rica & South America on his motorbike. 

Then it was back to David to return our rental car and catch the bus back to Panama City. This bus trip however was not quite as comfortable as the previous, we were held up for about an hour due to some demonstration along the route and were bushed by the time we hit Panama City. Our stay here is at the Occidental Barceló in the Obarrio District which is the city`s financial district. As El Cangrejo is just across Via Espana, the main thoroughfare from Obarrio we were able to visit some of our old haunts plus enjoy a new range of restaurants in Obarrio. As we were quite tired after the long bus trip the day before, we spent the last day in Panama City revisiting Mercado de Mariscos for a seafood feast as well as Casco Veijo. 


Panama does very little to advertise all the things that are offered there. It appears to be a reasonable place for expats to retire to, very affordable, good food available for purchase is you`re willing do your own cooking. Restaurant quality is mediocre unless you`re willing to pay a very high price. They seem to overcook meats and seafood. The locals are invariably friendly, interesting and happy. The economy appears to be on the upswing with locals reasonably prosperous. It suffers with the same corruption at the high level as any of the Latin & South American countries. Using the American dollar makes it easy to manage your way financially. Driving to the most part is very easy on highways but not in the bigger cities. Unlikely that we will return to Panama.

April 22nd 2019

Gabriel Allon Series . Daniel Silva.

Gabriel Allon Series . Daniel Silva.  Eighteen books so far in this series about Gabriel Allon, spy and art restorer.  Silva is very thorough in his research and thus paints a much more involved picture of the spy game than others you may have read. Allon is an Israeli spy, based on Europe and eventually in Israel as he climbs the ranks of their secret service.  Close ties to the Middle Eastern, European, English and American spy ranks allow the stories to flow across the globe as Allon pursues those who would do damage to Israel.  The research allows a different point of view to come through, which is often lacking in other Western writings.  Russia ends up as the ultimate enemy as Putin politics of aggression become evident.  But Allon has enemies in many camps through these books.  The writing is crisp, has a good pace, excellent character development and is often very hard to put down. Each book is great for a four plus hour plane ride.

April 15th 2019

Pocket Mentor. The entrepreneurs’s guide to building a lasting business from scratch. Mark Nureddine

Pocket Mentor. The entrepreneurs’s guide to building a lasting business from scratch. Mark Nureddine 2018.  ISBN 9781943386307.  A very pragmatic, straight forward approach to mentoring that would work with many entrepreneurs.  The case studies and examples are real world. His language is concise and easy to understand.  His products were tangible and hands on so the examples her may need to be finessed for technology plays.  I appreciate the author’s can do attitude to pretty well everything. His advice to entrepreneurs is plain enough that no one would misunderstand how hard it will be to start and run a successful business. Quite a useful summary of pricing here as well.